Debate around the Nuristani People
Religiously, it is true that they were polytheistic. So are Hindus and Zoroastrians, both equally descendants of Indo-European polytheistic religious practices, albeit with a lot of change in the intervening millennia. Al's own religion was probably a distant cousin, but there is no particular reason for thinking that his influences theirs, or that theirs somehow survived unchanged while surrounding ones did not.
Genetically, if Ali G. and his soldiers left descendants in the region, chances are pretty good that all of Afghanistan and Persia are saturated by now, after so much time has passed. Blue eyes are not uncommon in the region, though the dominant brown is much more common, and blue or green eyes are not as common as in, say, Sweden. Nuristanis are simply on the border of a region where people often have lighter hair, skin, and / or eyes (northern Eurasia), and a region where the dominant brown dominates (southern Eurasia / Africa). It would certainly not be uncommon for a remote and isolated mountain people to have recessive traits come out more than their urban neighbors, but you need not dip back 2000 + years to find out why.
So the short answer is no, I don' t have any published definitive evidence, but common sense does a lot to debunk the idea, or at least make it less provable.
Sitnam
02-25-2009
I'm
reading Afghanistan: A Short History of Its People and Politics by
Martin Ewans and he discusses the Nuristani people, a small isolated
tribe in northeastern Afghanistan. Not only do they have blue eyes,
light hair and fair skin (all uncommon among the surrounding population)
but they worshiped a polytheistic pantheon until finally converting to
Islam around the turn of the century. Anthropologists have long
specualated that they are in fact the descendants of a corp of veteran
soldiers serving in Alexander the Greats army, while others have argued
that they are the last remains of the Indo-Iranian migration making them
the oldest ethnic group in Afghanistan.
Arguments abound to support both sides, but common, this is the 21st century, it would take a doctor a few weeks wandering the countryside with a DNA kit to put this matter to bed. Yeah yeah, there's a war on and such, but if I had the expertise and the research grant I'd do it.
Has anybody published anything closer to definitive evidence one way or the other?
Arguments abound to support both sides, but common, this is the 21st century, it would take a doctor a few weeks wandering the countryside with a DNA kit to put this matter to bed. Yeah yeah, there's a war on and such, but if I had the expertise and the research grant I'd do it.
Has anybody published anything closer to definitive evidence one way or the other?
Linguistically, the Nuristani languages occupy a place somewhere in
between Indic and Iranian languages. Logically, this means they split up
somewhere around the time that those two groups split from each other,
long before Alexander the Great was a gleam in Philip of Macedon's eye.
You can't argue that one is older than the other if both were together
until they split.
Religiously, it is true that they were polytheistic. So are Hindus and Zoroastrians, both equally descendants of Indo-European polytheistic religious practices, albeit with a lot of change in the intervening millennia. Al's own religion was probably a distant cousin, but there is no particular reason for thinking that his influences theirs, or that theirs somehow survived unchanged while surrounding ones did not.
Genetically, if Ali G. and his soldiers left descendants in the region, chances are pretty good that all of Afghanistan and Persia are saturated by now, after so much time has passed. Blue eyes are not uncommon in the region, though the dominant brown is much more common, and blue or green eyes are not as common as in, say, Sweden. Nuristanis are simply on the border of a region where people often have lighter hair, skin, and / or eyes (northern Eurasia), and a region where the dominant brown dominates (southern Eurasia / Africa). It would certainly not be uncommon for a remote and isolated mountain people to have recessive traits come out more than their urban neighbors, but you need not dip back 2000 + years to find out why.
So the short answer is no, I don' t have any published definitive evidence, but common sense does a lot to debunk the idea, or at least make it less provable.
Tamerlane
02-25-2009, 05:19 PM
Religiously,
it is true that they were polytheistic. So are Hindus and Zoroastrians,
both equally descendants of Indo-European polytheistic religious
practices, albeit with a lot of change in the intervening millennia.
Exactly - this is a far more likely origin. Afghanistan has always been a tough not and Hinduism lingered in the region for centuries after the Islamic conquest. The survival of remote religious isolates like this is not so rare, witness the Yazidi faith. Without examining the Nuristani faith in depth, whatever it was, I'd suggest that a far more parsimonious explanation would be the persistence of some sort of Indo-Iranian pantheism/early or proto-Hinduism ( and probably heavily syncretized towards the end ).
As to Alexander's army specifically - I sincerely doubt it. To the point of considering it pretty near nonsense. He didn't linger long enough, the mass marriage of his officers ( to Persians, largely ) mostly didn't take, and his army wasn't huge.
Now later Greek settlement? Possible, but I'm dubious. The Indo-Bactrian state did see a number of Hellenistic institutions established and some limited Greek migration into local poleis ( some founded by Alexander ). But this is a very isolated region we're talking about. Then as well as now. It wouldn't make much sense that Greek settlement, which was mostly urban, would have been present in any numbers. Something like Kushan influence would frankly seem more likely and I believe accounts cast them as a light-skinned folk.
Purportedly light-skinned, red-haired people are known from ancient central asian populations and one can find light-skinned, blue-eyed Afghans to this day.
But it certainly would be interesting to see the genetics.
Exactly - this is a far more likely origin. Afghanistan has always been a tough not and Hinduism lingered in the region for centuries after the Islamic conquest. The survival of remote religious isolates like this is not so rare, witness the Yazidi faith. Without examining the Nuristani faith in depth, whatever it was, I'd suggest that a far more parsimonious explanation would be the persistence of some sort of Indo-Iranian pantheism/early or proto-Hinduism ( and probably heavily syncretized towards the end ).
As to Alexander's army specifically - I sincerely doubt it. To the point of considering it pretty near nonsense. He didn't linger long enough, the mass marriage of his officers ( to Persians, largely ) mostly didn't take, and his army wasn't huge.
Now later Greek settlement? Possible, but I'm dubious. The Indo-Bactrian state did see a number of Hellenistic institutions established and some limited Greek migration into local poleis ( some founded by Alexander ). But this is a very isolated region we're talking about. Then as well as now. It wouldn't make much sense that Greek settlement, which was mostly urban, would have been present in any numbers. Something like Kushan influence would frankly seem more likely and I believe accounts cast them as a light-skinned folk.
Purportedly light-skinned, red-haired people are known from ancient central asian populations and one can find light-skinned, blue-eyed Afghans to this day.
But it certainly would be interesting to see the genetics.
mutantmoose
02-25-2009, 06:30 PM
But it certainly would be interesting to see the genetics.
There's also the Kalasha people in Pakistan, neighbours of the Nuristani. They are still polytheistic, with their own language, own culture etc.
There seems to be some info about the genetics on their wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash
There's also the Kalasha people in Pakistan, neighbours of the Nuristani. They are still polytheistic, with their own language, own culture etc.
There seems to be some info about the genetics on their wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash
AK84
02-25-2009, 06:37 PM
The Indo-Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom)
What is now Islamabad was built near the ancient Indo-Greek capital of Taxila, incidentally a Greek company was given the tender for it,. In addition, the Ashoka pillars were inscribed in Greek (amongst others).
What is now Islamabad was built near the ancient Indo-Greek capital of Taxila, incidentally a Greek company was given the tender for it,. In addition, the Ashoka pillars were inscribed in Greek (amongst others).
ralph124c
02-25-2009, 08:13 PM
Why
would Alexander's soldiers have staed in a remote place like
Afghanistan? They were cut off from their culture, and way of life.
The whole idea sounds a bit daft to me.
The whole idea sounds a bit daft to me.
Kimstu
02-25-2009, 08:28 PM
Why
would Alexander's soldiers have staed in a remote place like
Afghanistan? They were cut off from their culture, and way of life.
The whole idea sounds a bit daft to me.
A number of them were less than happy about it. They stayed there because Alexander told them to. The remote region of Bactria-Sogdiana was a very difficult place to conquer (and still is), and the garrison Alexander left there was about a third of his whole expedition force into Asia. The unwilling settlers fought among themselves and rebelled against their leaders. In fact, shortly after Alexander's death his successors in Mesopotamia had to send an expedition eastward to keep thousands of resentful settlers from coming home.
(No online cite, sorry: this is mostly from Frank L. Holt's Alexander the Great and Bactria: The Formation of a Greek Frontier in Central Asia.)
The whole idea sounds a bit daft to me.
A number of them were less than happy about it. They stayed there because Alexander told them to. The remote region of Bactria-Sogdiana was a very difficult place to conquer (and still is), and the garrison Alexander left there was about a third of his whole expedition force into Asia. The unwilling settlers fought among themselves and rebelled against their leaders. In fact, shortly after Alexander's death his successors in Mesopotamia had to send an expedition eastward to keep thousands of resentful settlers from coming home.
(No online cite, sorry: this is mostly from Frank L. Holt's Alexander the Great and Bactria: The Formation of a Greek Frontier in Central Asia.)
Tamerlane
02-25-2009, 08:33 PM
Why
would Alexander's soldiers have staed in a remote place like
Afghanistan? They were cut off from their culture, and way of life.
The whole idea sounds a bit daft to me.
Well, some garrisons were put in place because it was a strategically important area at a confluence of the major trade routes linking Persia, India and central Asia ( and from there to China ). The Khyber Pass looms very large in world history as one of the most important pre-modern military/trade bottlenecks you can find. Afghanistan was much more central to the world system in ages past than it is today. It was still rugged, remote and hard to hold. But it was much more worthwhile to do so, if you could.
The Diadochid state of the Seleucids ( successors to Alexander in the region ) was more concerned ( understandably )with the land revenues of Syria and Mesopotamia. But the Bactrian state that fissioned off that empire did very well sitting at the apex of the central Asian trade routes flowing through Afghanistan/Khurasan. Well enough to fund aggressive expansion into northwest India. As they expanded and thrived they imported their culture via the establishment of urban centers with all the trappings of traditional Greek towns, like gymnasia. As the military system of the Hellenistic states was heavily based on imported Greek mercenaries, there was always a potential influx of fresh blood, in addition to Greek merchants and the like lured by opportunities in a state ruled by those congenial to their culture. Hellenization in the east was ultimately ephemeral, but it was quite real while it lasted.
I just doubt Kafiristan/Nuristan specifically was that central.
The whole idea sounds a bit daft to me.
Well, some garrisons were put in place because it was a strategically important area at a confluence of the major trade routes linking Persia, India and central Asia ( and from there to China ). The Khyber Pass looms very large in world history as one of the most important pre-modern military/trade bottlenecks you can find. Afghanistan was much more central to the world system in ages past than it is today. It was still rugged, remote and hard to hold. But it was much more worthwhile to do so, if you could.
The Diadochid state of the Seleucids ( successors to Alexander in the region ) was more concerned ( understandably )with the land revenues of Syria and Mesopotamia. But the Bactrian state that fissioned off that empire did very well sitting at the apex of the central Asian trade routes flowing through Afghanistan/Khurasan. Well enough to fund aggressive expansion into northwest India. As they expanded and thrived they imported their culture via the establishment of urban centers with all the trappings of traditional Greek towns, like gymnasia. As the military system of the Hellenistic states was heavily based on imported Greek mercenaries, there was always a potential influx of fresh blood, in addition to Greek merchants and the like lured by opportunities in a state ruled by those congenial to their culture. Hellenization in the east was ultimately ephemeral, but it was quite real while it lasted.
I just doubt Kafiristan/Nuristan specifically was that central.
Dr. Drake
02-25-2009, 09:02 PM
Why
would Alexander's soldiers have stayed in a remote place like
Afghanistan? They were cut off from their culture, and way of life.
The whole idea sounds a bit daft to me.Though this has been answered factually, in the spirit of the OP's genetics question: The soldiers would not have had to have stayed for very long in order to make a contribution to the region's gene pool.
The whole idea sounds a bit daft to me.Though this has been answered factually, in the spirit of the OP's genetics question: The soldiers would not have had to have stayed for very long in order to make a contribution to the region's gene pool.
Sailboat
02-26-2009, 08:25 AM
Though
this has been answered factually, in the spirit of the OP's genetics
question: The soldiers would not have had to have stayed for very long
in order to make a contribution to the region's gene pool.
Under two minutes, in many cases.
:)
Under two minutes, in many cases.
:)
Elendil's Heir
02-26-2009, 02:34 PM
A fascinating and possibly related story: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text
Zsofia
02-26-2009, 03:10 PM
You
may find A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush an interesting read - the
author and his friend decide to go looking for Nuristan in IIRC the
50's. It's a very funny travel memoir, but the thing that got me is
that they were tromping around looking for the Remotest People On Earth
We Promise, and when they got there these guys were paying taxes and
stuff to the regular government. (Of course, the author is British, so
"Remotest People on Earth" probably means "Not Very British" to him.)
Throatwarbler Mangrove
02-26-2009, 05:47 PM
Why would fair hair and blue eyes suggest Hellenic ancestry?
Kimstu
02-26-2009, 07:14 PM
Why would fair hair and blue eyes suggest Hellenic ancestry?
Macedonian, actually. The classical author Xenophanes noted that people from the region of Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians), on the east end of Macedonia where Alexander and many of his soldiers later came from, had blue eyes and red (or reddish or fair?) hair. This gave rise in the race-obsessed 19th century to a widespread belief that northern Greeks or some subset of them were typically fair in coloring.
Some ancient artifacts from that region apparently do depict a variety of complexion characteristics, including some individuals with fair coloring and red hair, but AFAICT modern anthropologists think that Thracians were mostly the same dark-eyed, dark-haired Mediterranean stocks as Italians and other Greeks.
Macedonian, actually. The classical author Xenophanes noted that people from the region of Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians), on the east end of Macedonia where Alexander and many of his soldiers later came from, had blue eyes and red (or reddish or fair?) hair. This gave rise in the race-obsessed 19th century to a widespread belief that northern Greeks or some subset of them were typically fair in coloring.
Some ancient artifacts from that region apparently do depict a variety of complexion characteristics, including some individuals with fair coloring and red hair, but AFAICT modern anthropologists think that Thracians were mostly the same dark-eyed, dark-haired Mediterranean stocks as Italians and other Greeks.
indian
02-27-2009, 04:08 AM
The
kodava community (http://www.koramangala.com/travel/coorg/coorg.htm) in
India claim they are descendants of the soldiers of Alexander the great
.
This community has produced some of the finest soldiers of India. They are tall and well built. Though no scientific study has been done on this claim yet.
This community has produced some of the finest soldiers of India. They are tall and well built. Though no scientific study has been done on this claim yet.
smiling bandit
02-27-2009, 10:55 AM
I would be willing to bet there aren't many people between the Sahara and China who aren't descended from Alexanders soldiers.
ralph124c
02-27-2009, 01:39 PM
Those
cool looking yellow headdresses worn by Tibetan buddhist monks-the look
remarably like the helmets worn by Alexander's soldiers.
is there any evidence that alexander's men reached Tibet?
is there any evidence that alexander's men reached Tibet?
Really Not All That Bright
02-27-2009, 01:59 PM
Purportedly
light-skinned, red-haired people are known from ancient central asian
populations and one can find light-skinned, blue-eyed Afghans to this
day.
But it certainly would be interesting to see the genetics.
It's worth noting that blue eyes and fair skin are fairly common among the population of Kashmir, also.
But it certainly would be interesting to see the genetics.
It's worth noting that blue eyes and fair skin are fairly common among the population of Kashmir, also.
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